Curse

Shakkara · Aug 10, 2009, 02:44 PM // 14:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shasgaliel

Motivation does not solely depend on this one skill. I think it is only a specific build which has been nerfed. I use motivation paragon all the time and I was unaffected by the nerf at all. I am quite surprised by some of the comments as if there was only one skill in motivation and motivation was the only attribute for paragon. I agree that the nerf was unnecessary for PVE and should be indeed reversed. But this is not the end of the world.

Thing is that ever since all the shouts got nerfed to 20 second recharge, this skill is essential to have healing functionality, or else you can't do anything while you wait for all stuff to recharge.

De Maximoff · Aug 10, 2009, 06:21 PM // 18:21

Shakkara you hit the nail on the head again, the recharge is absurd. While waiting for the skills to recharge the team is taking damage. And I agree Anet seems addicted to their cookie cutter builds. Try being a Paragon and not Imbagon, good luck getting into a group. If you don't have the cookie cutter build it will be very difficult.

The Paragon Hero builds for Mallyx showed that a Paragon did not have to be Imbagon to be highly effective. Anet admited that the skill was being abused in PVP, there was NO mention of abuse in PVE so why did they change it for PVE???

I said it before and I'll say it again. 'We did not think these changes merited splitting these skills into separate PvP and PvE versions.' The absurdity of that statement is only matched by its stupidity.

Reverend Dr · Aug 10, 2009, 08:04 PM // 20:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shakkara

this skill is essential to have healing functionality,

That is what we first thought. Yes before the nerf it was extremely powerful, most likely too powerful, but it never was the single skill around which the build was based.

We too thought this was going to be the death of our paragon backline. While it does indeed have an impact, the sky is not falling chicken little.

Okay the gwcode doesn't work anymore, look here http://gwshack.us/e7755. This works as a backline. It works in PvP, it has worked in UW on hard mode. It works without any of the PvP split or PvP-only skills. It has plenty of room for modification, we keep it modded for physical heavy. We don't really care about PvE so we've never really bothered to mod it for PvE.

Shakkara · Aug 12, 2009, 01:11 PM // 13:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

That is what we first thought. Yes before the nerf it was extremely powerful, most likely too powerful, but it never was the single skill around which the build was based.

We too thought this was going to be the death of our paragon backline. While it does indeed have an impact, the sky is not falling chicken little.

Okay the gwcode doesn't work anymore, look here http://gwshack.us/e7755. This works as a backline. It works in PvP, it has worked in UW on hard mode. It works without any of the PvP split or PvP-only skills. It has plenty of room for modification, we keep it modded for physical heavy. We don't really care about PvE so we've never really bothered to mod it for PvE.

Those builds totally won't work on heroes in PVE, as one can only have 2 paragon heroes.

Your healing comes for a large part of chorus of restoration which doesn't work on non-paragon/warrior allies.

I couldn't care less about PVP, all I want is a PVE version for Finale of Restoration, which ArenaNet claims isn't needed. Well it is needed, try play a motivation based paragon in PVE now, there is no way to make a valid motivation build for heroes. Same with a main paragon, there is a reason the only paragon build on PVX wiki is the imbagon build, which is based heavily on just PVE-only skills.

Racthoh · Aug 12, 2009, 04:21 PM // 16:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shakkara

Thing is that ever since all the shouts got nerfed to 20 second recharge, this skill is essential to have healing functionality, or else you can't do anything while you wait for all stuff to recharge.

I'm not sure what this all chants changed to 20 recharge is about, the only change I can recall was Song of Restoration as it was originally at 15 seconds. At the time I remember thinking how strong it was because it was the fastest recharging chant available at the time.

Looking back on the updates shows the same thing:

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Game_updates/20070119
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Game_updates/20070201

In fact Ballad of Restoration was initially buffed to a 15 second recharge.

Shakkara · Aug 12, 2009, 05:21 PM // 17:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

I'm not sure what this all chants changed to 20 recharge is about, the only change I can recall was Song of Restoration as it was originally at 15 seconds. At the time I remember thinking how strong it was because it was the fastest recharging chant available at the time.

Looking back on the updates shows the same thing:

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Game_updates/20070119
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Game_updates/20070201

In fact Ballad of Restoration was initially buffed to a 15 second recharge.

Song of Restoration always had 15 seconds.
Anet nerfed it to 20 seconds, then 30 seconds (which it still is for PVP) but reduced the PVE version back to 15.

It also used to cost 5 energy instead of 10 and used to heal a bit more.

If we compare it to Light of Deliverance and Heal Party, it's clear that the recharge of these skills are too long.

Racthoh · Aug 12, 2009, 05:46 PM // 17:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shakkara

Song of Restoration always had 15 seconds.
Anet nerfed it to 20 seconds, then 30 seconds (which it still is for PVP) but reduced the PVE version back to 15.

The point is it was one skill that got changed to 20 in the end, it was amounts and not the recharges that reduced the effectiveness of the Motivation line.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shakkara

It also used to cost 5 energy instead of 10 and used to heal a bit more.

If we compare it to Light of Deliverance and Heal Party, it's clear that the recharge of these skills are too long.

You can't compare the way skills work like that, not in Guild Wars.

Simath · Aug 12, 2009, 05:53 PM // 17:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shakkara

If we compare it to Light of Deliverance and Heal Party, it's clear that the recharge of these skills are too long.

You're forgetting HP and LoD are designed for a class who is built to heal and prot. You can't compare paragon heals with monk heals. There is no parallel that can be intelligently drawn. Paragons were not made nor designed with the intention for strong heals, rather they are a utility class used to buff your party defensively, offensively, or both.

Reverend Dr · Aug 12, 2009, 06:43 PM // 18:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shakkara

try play a motivation based paragon in PVE now

UW HM say sup.

If it works in PvP it will work in PvE. Really, at first we were worried that our build would no longer work, but it still works. I am not saying that Finale wasn't hit too hard, I am not saying that there shouldn't be a change, I'm not saying that the change was even made for the right reasons (A loophole in the tiebreaker system that needs to be removed anyway).

What I am saying is that it isn't the end of the world. Motivation based paragons took a hit, but this one skill was not the one skill upon which they relied. As such running around yelling "OH LORD ITS ALL OVER ITS ALL WORTHLESS NOW NOTHING IS WORTH ANYTHING GAME OVER MAN GAME OVER HOW THE HELL ANET ARE YOU TOO DUMB TO KNOW ANYTHING!" makes you sound like a big baby and will garner absolutely no sympathy from anyone.

At this point I don't really know what to say. I've posted what will work just fine, the builds are absolutely simple, they work with the gimped PvP version of the skills, they have so much room for modification and addition of PvE-only skills, but certain people are determined to not believe anything except what they want to believe.

Shakkara · Aug 12, 2009, 08:57 PM // 20:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

The point is it was one skill that got changed to 20 in the end, it was amounts and not the recharges that reduced the effectiveness of the Motivation line.

I'm telling you, that having your entire bar recharging and you unable to heal is not fun and the skills are gimped by their recharges (and possibly the lack of skills and their situational nature of them which renders over half of them useless), not their heal amount.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

You can't compare the way skills work like that, not in Guild Wars.

That doesn't change the fact that the entire motivation line is now totally unplayable in PVE and the only remaining build is the cookie cutter imbagon. Which doesn't work on heroes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Simath

You're forgetting HP and LoD are designed for a class who is built to heal and prot. You can't compare paragon heals with monk heals. There is no parallel that can be intelligently drawn. Paragons were not made nor designed with the intention for strong heals, rather they are a utility class used to buff your party defensively, offensively, or both.

And what role is there for the motivation line in all that? None left.

The skills are quite useless by themselves, but thanks to Finale of Restoration, all shouts, no matter how crap, could double for healing, which removed the extremely situational nature of most paragon skills.

Take anthem of flame. I'm not using it for the burning, as my party doesn't have attack skills. I'm just using it because my hero gets 3 energy off it and it used to trigger a heal when it ended.

Chorus of restoration and energizing chorus are useless in my party too as there is often only one paragon hero. But hey, they don't have long recharges and they heal.

I mean, take a look at the whole motivation line...
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Motivation

Would you honestly use any of these skills if it's a balanced party?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

UW HM say sup.

If it works in PvP it will work in PvE. Really, at first we were worried that our build would no longer work, but it still works. I am not saying that Finale wasn't hit too hard, I am not saying that there shouldn't be a change, I'm not saying that the change was even made for the right reasons (A loophole in the tiebreaker system that needs to be removed anyway).

What I am saying is that it isn't the end of the world. Motivation based paragons took a hit, but this one skill was not the one skill upon which they relied. As such running around yelling "OH LORD ITS ALL OVER ITS ALL WORTHLESS NOW NOTHING IS WORTH ANYTHING GAME OVER MAN GAME OVER HOW THE HELL ANET ARE YOU TOO DUMB TO KNOW ANYTHING!" makes you sound like a big baby and will garner absolutely no sympathy from anyone.

This skill was the sole cornerstone of the PVE motivation based paragon, as it's the only skill that allows use of 'useless' situational skills for the purpose of healing.

Without it, the rest of the motivation skills are useless (for as long as any of those skills were used in PVE, thanks to the insane recharges). I consider any skill which is needed on-demand (such as healing skills) with a recharge over 10 seconds useless for PVE purposes. It's all about damage over time and healing over time and the recharges kill these numbers. Finale of Restoration allowed to bypass the silly timers by using 'worthless' adrenal skills for healing.

Paragon heroes were a valid alternative to N/Rit or monk healer heroes, now they are totally useless. As for those that say that Paragons shouldn't heal, should necros outheal monks?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

At this point I don't really know what to say. I've posted what will work just fine, the builds are absolutely simple, they work with the gimped PvP version of the skills, they have so much room for modification and addition of PvE-only skills, but certain people are determined to not believe anything except what they want to believe.

Well those builds of yours only work in full-paragon teams, and are clearly not functional PVE builds, especially not when taking into account balanced parties with random pickups.

I challenge you to make a hero build for a motivation paragon which you'd pick over another hero.

Reverend Dr · Aug 13, 2009, 01:24 AM // 01:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shakkara

I challenge you to make a paragon build which you'd pick over something else.

^^ more of the truth here

PvE is no longer about overpowered/underpowered; every profession is overpowered, so it is now about efficiency. Motivation paragons have never been efficient, paragons themselves have never really been all that efficient. Even the imbagon is redundant with two competent W/X or X/W on the frontline.

Of course you aren't running a paragon hero. For the same reason you aren't running a Warrior, assassins, or dervish hero, the AI is just terrible. AI is bad enough at switching targets having a huge delay between each, no concept of how to use stances, refuse to use attack skills in a row, and have no concept of how to use the adrenaline system. Until this is remedied there will never be a valid reason to use paragon heroes (other than morgan's requirement in that one mission) or other attacking heroes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shakkara

Paragon heroes were a valid alternative . . . now they are totally useless.

Stop exaggerating. Really it hurts your case. Any developers from Anet that are reading this thread see this type of exaggeration and immediately surmise that you do not understand the game and immediately dismiss the entire complaint.

Yes motivation healing got a bit of a nerf, if this was enough to turn your build into garbage, then the heart of the problem is in your build.

Xenomortis · Aug 13, 2009, 01:31 AM // 01:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Until this is remedied there will never be a valid reason to use paragon heroes (other than morgan's requirement in that one mission) or other attacking heroes.

The command line has enough useful things along with leadership for me to bring Morgahn when H/H on my nec with AP-MoP.

Shakkara · Aug 13, 2009, 08:59 AM // 08:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

^^ more of the truth here

PvE is no longer about overpowered/underpowered; every profession is overpowered, so it is now about efficiency. Motivation paragons have never been efficient, paragons themselves have never really been all that efficient. Even the imbagon is redundant with two competent W/X or X/W on the frontline.

Of course you aren't running a paragon hero. For the same reason you aren't running a Warrior, assassins, or dervish hero, the AI is just terrible. AI is bad enough at switching targets having a huge delay between each, no concept of how to use stances, refuse to use attack skills in a row, and have no concept of how to use the adrenaline system. Until this is remedied there will never be a valid reason to use paragon heroes (other than morgan's requirement in that one mission) or other attacking heroes.

Then you were doing it wrong.

This used to compete pretty well with monks or n/rt heroes and I used just these for healing in the realm of torment instead of monks (especially the final two missions in hardmode) due to their immunity to dazed and their natural high armor value which makes the NPCs leave them more or less alone.

[Song of Restoration]
[Ballad of Restoration]
[Aria of Zeal]
[Anthem of Flame]
[Energizing Chorus] or [Watch Yourself!]
[Mending Refrain]
[Energizing Finale]
[Finale of Restoration]

15 motivation
14 leadership

If hayda could be brought along she'd have a similar build with two other spam-chants such as GFTE and chorus of restoration, but in general, just morgahn was pretty effective by himself. I wouldn't know how to complete Grand Court of Sebelkeh HM at masters time without them.

AI of this build is just lovely, and better than any other healing hero I could think of.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Stop exaggerating. Really it hurts your case. Any developers from Anet that are reading this thread see this type of exaggeration and immediately surmise that you do not understand the game and immediately dismiss the entire complaint.

Yes motivation healing got a bit of a nerf, if this was enough to turn your build into garbage, then the heart of the problem is in your build.

It's not exaggeration, it's facts, but since you haven't played a motigon and immediately dismissed them as 'inefficient' while my experience with them has consistently proved the contrary.

The heart of the problem is not in the build, the problem is in the class, the motivation line, and now finale of restoration in particular.

I've had another go with Paragon heroes and came up with this build:

["They're on Fire!"]
[Burning Refrain]
[Blazing Finale]
[Bladeturn Refrain]
["Go for the Eyes!"]
[Energizing Chorus]
["Never Surrender!"]
[Wild Throw]

3 spear mastery
14 command
14 leadership

It doesn't really work well but it's the best thing on a para hero I've found so far. But noone in their right mind would sacrifice a hero slot just for a situational 33% damage reduction, 19% block, and spamming burning on enemies. Although Never Surrender is somewhat nice but its nowhere near the amount of damage prevention and healing that is required from a support char.

Reverend Dr · Aug 14, 2009, 07:45 AM // 07:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shakkara

It's not exaggeration, it's facts, but since you haven't played a motigon and immediately dismissed them as 'inefficient' while my experience with them has consistently proved the contrary.

That is my point I have run motogons. I still run motogons. When I tell you that the unnerfed finale motogons were inferior to good players on backline, it is not mere theorycrafting. When I tell you that motogons haven't been OMGNERFEDTOWORTHLESS, it is not mere theorycrafting.

Motogons have tons of party heals but really lack any direct heal. That's why infuse health, even at no healing prayers it is still a large swing and the health loss from infuse is covered by the exorbitant party healing. The problems with what you have just posted is the lack of direct heal. Having a strong direct heal will keep spikish packets of damage from dropping your party. With the strong PvE-versions of Bladeturn refrain, stand your ground, and never surrender along with the motivation line, a paragon backline is still very much possible.

Racthoh · Aug 14, 2009, 10:22 AM // 10:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shakkara

I'm telling you, that having your entire bar recharging and you unable to heal is not fun and the skills are gimped by their recharges (and possibly the lack of skills and their situational nature of them which renders over half of them useless), not their heal amount.

You're not supposed to play a Paragon like that, that's why. Those two builds you've posted indicate this. You're using Anthem of Flame as a means of gaining energy (3 energy every 11 seconds is less than 1 pip) when simply attacking to build adrenaline and fire off an adrenaline shout/chant would be more productive. As often as those heals may be going off they'll frequently be going to waste; over-healing. I have run Finale of Restoration in the past and stopped using it for that very reason because once I realized just how often I could make shouts/chants end it was completely unnecessary or unreliable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shakkara

That doesn't change the fact that the entire motivation line is now totally unplayable in PVE and the only remaining build is the cookie cutter imbagon. Which doesn't work on heroes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shakkara

I mean, take a look at the whole motivation line...
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Motivation

Would you honestly use any of these skills if it's a balanced party?

Lyric of Zeal, Song of Purification, Chorus of Restoration, Aria of Zeal. But I'd never think of running all four on one bar. Lyric of Zeal and Chorus of Restoration I would interchange depending on the party setup as a more physical based party can easily load a shout for the heal while a caster oriented makeup can use the energy gain from Lyric of Zeal. Song of Purification is the strongest condition removal skill in PvE, hands down. Aria of Zeal gives 5 energy, enough for a monk to fire off a 200+ point Word of Healing. The only reason I stopped using Mending Refrain was because I got annoyed with the 15 second echo timer; 48 health restored each second when spread to all eight party members is still very strong.

Alternatively I'd swap out Song of Purification for Defensive Anthem as the elite for areas without heavy degen/blind to support the backline. "The Power Is Yours!" used to be decent in PvE but now it's complete trash. "It's Just a Flesh Wound!" has always been inferior to Song of Purification, and always felt the 30 additional health that Song of Restoration restores over Ballad of Restoration just wasn't worth my elite slot. Not in PvE anyway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shakkara

This skill was the sole cornerstone of the PVE motivation based paragon, as it's the only skill that allows use of 'useless' situational skills for the purpose of healing.

Taking useless skills to power off a 70ish point heal is a waste of a skill slot, it's that simple. Even if none of those heals are being wasted as they trigger Finale of Restoration a competent monk would realize the target is under fire and utilize some form of prot to deal with the situation. There is a reason monks only take two or three heals and the rest prot as proactive defense is significantly stronger than reactive.

Trying to power half a paragon with useless skills does not sound like something I'd ever want in my group.

Tenebrae · Aug 14, 2009, 11:46 AM // 11:46

That was a good explanation Racthoh but i think theres something you didnt test and its the Flesh Wound elite.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

Song of Purification is the strongest condition removal skill in PvE, hands down. Aria of Zeal gives 5 energy, enough for a monk to fire off a 200+ point Word of Healing. The only reason I stopped using Mending Refrain was because I got annoyed with the 15 second echo timer; 48 health restored each second when spread to all eight party members is still very strong.

"It's Just a Flesh Wound!" has always been inferior to Song of Purification, and always felt the 30 additional health that Song of Restoration restores over Ballad of Restoration just wasn't worth my elite slot. Not in PvE anyway.

Maybe at moti 12+ Song of Purification is better for being "within earshot" range but check IJAFW is a shout and has no activation , also benefits from leadership and target loses ALL conditions , not 1 , 2 or 3 and doesnt need to use a skill to remove ( H/H dont know that and wont use a skill on purpose to trigger SoP ). I have been testing cautery signet , IJAFW and SoP aaaaand i dont see that "hands down" clear , not at all . You should try it with some wide shouts to provide energy , that elite is a really good condt removal .
Ofc depends on what you are expecting for mass dissease , D foes inflicting condt on area well , take SoP ; but if you try for mobs to inflict conditions on 1-2 chars .... i would take IJAFW instead SoP even on a non moti para.

Racthoh · Aug 14, 2009, 12:05 PM // 12:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Maybe at moti 12+ Song of Purification is better for being "within earshot" range but check IJAFW is a shout and has no activation , also benefits from leadership and target loses ALL conditions , not 1 , 2 or 3 and doesnt need to use a skill to remove ( H/H dont know that and wont use a skill on purpose to trigger SoP ). I have been testing cautery signet , IJAFW and SoP aaaaand i dont see that "hands down" clear , not at all . You should try it with some wide shouts to provide energy , that elite is a really good condt removal .
Ofc depends on what you are expecting for mass dissease , D foes inflicting condt on area well , take SoP ; but if you try for mobs to inflict conditions on 1-2 chars .... i would take IJAFW instead SoP even on a non moti para.

This is why I don't care for "It's Just A Flesh Wound!", even though it's targeted more at why I don't use condition removal on my Monk it still addresses the matter. It's Restore Conditions without the heal, when the majority of conditions do damage that need healing. "It's Just A Flesh Wound!" would take 32 energy to clear an entire party of conditions over 8 seconds while Song of Purification would take 5 attacks (fewer with Dark Fury or the like) at 1.125 attack speed each (assuming Aggressive Refrain) and 2 seconds to activate. During this time it would restore energy to the Paragon as well. If a single target is being bombarded with conditions then either A) Restore Conditions is better since it heals or B) It's one target, I'll wait for them to drop below 50% and throw a 200+ point Word of Healing at them.

The instant cast time is moot in PvE, especially given the recharge times of Song of Purification.

There's nothing "It's Just A Flesh Wound!" does that Song of Purification can't do, but plenty Song of Purification can do that "It's Just A Flesh Wound!" can't.

Tenebrae · Aug 14, 2009, 12:32 PM // 12:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

This is why I don't care for "It's Just A Flesh Wound!", even though it's targeted more at why I don't use condition removal on my Monk it still addresses the matter. It's Restore Conditions without the heal, when the majority of conditions do damage that need healing.

Healing is another stuff , there are plenty of things that can heal . SoP doesnt heal either and im not arguing against a prot RC , i quoted you for SoP remember ?. I dont find RC worth taking on a prot for HM .

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

"It's Just A Flesh Wound!" would take 32 energy to clear an entire party of conditions over 8 seconds while Song of Purification would take 5 attacks (fewer with Dark Fury or the like) at 1.125 attack speed each (assuming Aggressive Refrain) and 2 seconds to activate.

And so ? because we all know that ALL mobs in PvE spread at least 3 conditions on the WHOLE party ALWAYS right ? . Dont fake scenarios where SoP is better because i know where SoP or Cautery Sig is better.
And fyi ( once again ) SoP doesnt remove conditions , SoP removes conditions when skills used and as i told ya , H/H wont use skills to trigger SoP on purpose.
Assuming Aggresive Refrain and Dark Fury lets assume my P has GFTE and then IJAFW is an almost free condt removal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

If a single target is being bombarded with conditions then either A) Restore Conditions is better since it heals or B) It's one target, I'll wait for them to drop below 50% and throw a 200+ point Word of Healing at them.

I never said it was better than RC , like i told you before i dont find RC worth for a PvE prot and i quoted you for that "hands down" on SoP over IJAFW.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

The instant cast time is moot in PvE, especially given the recharge times of Song of Purification.

Wrong , is not an instant cast time , theres no cast time. It allows P to attack while shouting and gain adrenaline for somethin else.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

There's nothing "It's Just A Flesh Wound!" does that Song of Purification can't do, but plenty Song of Purification can do that "It's Just A Flesh Wound!" can't.

Oh yes there is , it removes ALL conditions INSTANTLY not when skills used. Remember that skills have an aftercast so SoP on best cases removes 3 condts on a target in 3 secs ..... usual case ...... about 5 or more. If you play wise and use your brain , IJAFW does really good or at least not bad.

Like i told you before , im not saying IJAFW is better than SoP in 100% of the cases but theres no way in hell you can say SoP is better in 100% hands down. Only is better "hands down" on mass condt spread zones and like we all know , that doesnt happen often .... not at all.

snaek · Aug 14, 2009, 03:28 PM // 15:28

ijafw is a 4v4 pvp skill. if you even consider taking it in pve, i will shot you.

Reverend Dr · Aug 14, 2009, 08:30 PM // 20:30

SoP requires a significant investment into motivation. Flesh does not require any investment to get the conditions removed. Of course we keep it there for PvP where we can instantly rip off deep wound/cracked armor and where SoP is just not reliable.

SoR isn't meant to be taken in place of ballad, it is meant to be taken in addition to ballad. And if you use them both back to back (like a hero), then that's just terrible.